• AutomatedTester
    going to lunch
  • whimboo
    ato: hurray for killing all my close window work from friday myself by running hg up -C central :(
  • whimboo
    oh wait. looks like it survived due to the awesome session feature of sublime text
  • ato
    whimboo: Hah.
  • ato
    whimboo: Is this when I suggest git won’t let you just overwrite your work?
  • whimboo
    ato: well, the issue is the -C option which I accidentally put in here
  • whimboo
    if you force git to switch it would do the same
  • ato
    IMO `git reset --hard` is clearer than `hg up -C`. There’s no implicit way to throw stuff away when pulling in git.
  • whimboo
    ato: well, it would be like git checkout -f
  • ato
    I suppose. There’s no guard for human behaviour alas.
  • ato
    Throwing away work is the worst. I’ve done that a few times with `git shelve`.
  • whimboo
    ato: indeed. and never forget to commit actual work
  • whimboo
    push more often to review, or a user repo
  • whimboo
    ato: btw. on which bug did you add the timeouts property to GeckoDriver?
  • whimboo
    i would like to do it the same way for a property to get the window handles
  • jgraham
    Tomcat|sheriffduty: Will 16:00 CET be OK for an autoclassification meeting?
  • ato
    whimboo: Instead of leaving work uncommitted in my repo, say over a weekend, I now typically check out a branch with the bug name and make commit with a "tmp" message. Then on Monday I will `git reset --soft 'HEAD^'`.
  • Tomcat|sheriffduty
    jgraham: thats in 25 minutes right ?
  • jgraham
    Tomcat|sheriffduty: Yeah. I sent an invitation out last week, I thought, but perhaps it didn't work
  • whimboo
    ato: yeah. i just missed to do it on Friday and forgot about today
  • ato
  • Tomcat|sheriffduty
    oh there it is, missed it due to holiday here, but yes the time work
  • whimboo
    ato: oh it already landed! thanks
  • whimboo
    ato: are you up to moving property definitions to the top of the GeckoDriver class?
  • jgraham
    Tomcat|mtg: Join LON 410?
  • whimboo
    the mixture of properties, helper methods and webdriver commands is not ideally imho
  • Tomcat|mtg
    yeah
  • ato
    whimboo: I don’t have an exact idea about their placement.
  • ato
    whimboo: We’re slowly moving towards better code organisation. testing/marionette/driver.js was a bigger mess three years ago, I assure you.
  • ato
    whimboo: I have some rough future plan to make the distinction between WebDriver command implementations somewhat more decoupled from helper functions and session state. The rewriting of the capabilities parsing is one step in this direction, where all session state now lives in testing/marionette/session.js.
  • whimboo
    ato: heh, thankfully I haven't looked into it earlier? ;)
  • ato
    whimboo: To shed some more light into this: Now that we have namespacing in the Marionette protocol (addon:*, cookie:*, i11n:*) it’s not far-fetched that we could implement the command “handlers” for these in separate modules.
  • ato
    whimboo: You plug in your module and it auto-registers the handlers it implements, or something.
  • whimboo
    ato: ++ same for the offlcial webdriver commands?
  • whimboo
    which might be in webdriver.js or similar
  • ato
    whimboo: Potentially… I haven’t given it much thought yet.
  • ato
    whimboo: Yeah, possibly that might work. Those commands we do implement which aren’t WebDriver conforming could I guess live outside of that.
  • Tomcat|mtg
  • Tomcat|mtg
  • bugbot
    Bug 1117583: Treeherder, normal, wkocher, VERIFIED FIXED, Create a minimal UI that sheriffs can use to file bugs for new intermittent failures more quickly
  • ato
    maja_zf: Are you subscribed to the public-browser-tools-testing@ mailing list?
  • maja_zf
    ato: nope, never heard of it. it's a mozilla list?
  • ato
    maja_zf: It’s the WebDriver WG list and there’s some discussion going on there about actions which is probably relevant to you.
  • ato
  • ato
  • maja_zf
    thanks, subscribed
  • jgraham
    It's a trap!
  • maja_zf
    haha
  • mcote
    emceeaich: you still going to do your talk today at the weekly meeting?
  • emceeaich
    Yes I need to update the wiki
  • jmaher
    gbrown: oh, landing the l32 tests:) did you make changes to the packages, or is this a fingers crossed thing?
  • gbrown
    jmaher: fingers crossed + I'm breaking the patch down into a few components, so if it fails again I should have a clearer idea of the cause
  • jmaher
    oh cool
  • whimboo
    oh, mozreview got an update.... all so big now
  • mcote
    some of it is smaller :) (the commtis table is collapsed by default)
  • jgraham
    That looks… pretty strange.
  • jgraham
    There's a table with a heading, and then something that doesn't go with the headings and then some columns that do go with the headings
  • jgraham
    and then a gap and then a different table, and then no gap and then the toolbar that looks like it's supposed to be at the top of the screen
  • jgraham
    Am I seeing the right things?
  • jgraham
    And then another heading that's a repeat of the thing in the first table
  • ato
    I’m not sure this visual change is an improvement.
  • jgraham
    And then some more metadata, then some hg commands that aren't relevant to me, then a commit message, then I run out of screen space
  • jgraham
    It seems like not a lot of useful stuff "above the fold" and what is there not in the most logical places
  • maja_zf
    oh my, mozreview looks very different since this morning
  • ato
    So, the font size for everything in the UI is massive on my non-retina screen, and the font in the diff viewer is tiny.
  • jgraham
    Also, the difference between "Review" and "Reviews" is apparently critical and totally non-obvious
  • ato
    And there’s at least three or four different fonts in use.
  • ato
    And none of the UI bugs I’ve filed on mozreview have been addressed. (Regarding contrast, font sizes, link colouring)
  • jgraham
    And with a try job, there is a bad loading experience
  • jgraham
    (see e.g. reviewboard.mozilla.org/r/102348 where the "some jobs failed on try" row first overflows then resizes during load)
  • ato
    What’s up with All The Capitalisation For Everything?
  • ato
    That’s such an Americanism.
  • ato
    The Always Show All Comments preference that is always present is broken too.
  • ato
    jgraham: Can you look at the remaining issue here? reviewboard.mozilla.org/r/101878/diff/1#index_header
  • maja_zf
    you guys remind me of statler and waldorf
  • ato
    jgraham: (If you can manage to.)
  • whimboo
    ato: totally agree re degration of the usability
  • Callek
    ato++
  • Callek
    ato: double plus on all those comments
  • Callek
    ato: I was bringing it up with mcote in #mozreview who just pointed me here
  • mcote
    Callek: I didn't point you here
  • mcote
    I was pointing the mozreview devs here
  • Callek
    mcote: well, you pointed me at other discussion
  • Callek
    :-)
  • Callek
    but fair
  • Callek
    :-)
  • davidwalsh
    mcote and a few others thought the table would be best served above the "content" area
  • mcote
    no one seems to object to that part at least, I don't think
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: I don't mind the review table and such being higher, but the humungous font eliminates any usefulness of that
  • jgraham
    I think the commit table should be under the heading telling you about the curren tcommit
  • davidwalsh
    I'm looking at the font-size now...what item(s) specifically? The font-sizes were super small for me and I have to zoom a bunch; I wouldn't consider any of the font sizes outrageous
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: I admittedly rarely need the "Information" stuff, that used to be sidebarlike, and is now below "table" of commits, but above any potential diff of commits
  • davidwalsh
    jgraham: I agree but others didn't fwiw
  • jgraham
    I' trying to rearrange things in the DOM inspector now to show what I would prefer within the constraints of what that allows
  • Callek
    but its presence there, especially with shortened command lines in the don't-look-like-textboxes textboxes is confusing
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: did you see my screenshots in #mozreview
  • whimboo
    ato: so close() and closeChromeWindow() both work synchronous now. Last step is to add new tests
  • Callek
  • Callek
  • Callek
  • Callek
  • Callek
  • Callek
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: its basically much worse when looking at the whole commit
  • Callek
    (rather than an individual changeset)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: also the "header" with "Download Diff" "Autoland" etc, I would rather be above the table, since its explicitly a header.... especially in new UI where the commit table is not as distinguished from the rest of UI
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: I can bump down the font-size without issue; the flip side is the number of people who've commented that they have to squint to see things, and end up having to zoom their browsers in so they can read stuff without hurting their eyes
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: That was going to be the "next step"; i.e. moving the buttons to the top
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: solution (note: I didn't read the source to see) don't define font in px, define it in pt/em stuff
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: IMO, which others mentioned they didn't want, was that the content area should be above the table, thus moving those action buttons above it
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: the BIGGEST piece, is for all fonts to be relative to each other, in a reasonable manner
  • jgraham
    davidwalsh, mcote: pasteboard.co/k3VXJyMkh.png is what 5 minutes and the DOM inspector allowed (just (re)moving content, not fixing fonts, colors, etc.)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: so that if people have to squint, increasing the mozreview font size is a reasonable solution, as is decreasing it... but default should be endeavored to be most-useable by most people
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: as it stands, if I decrease, I can't read the diff well, but if I increase its "even worse" where its big
  • jgraham
    I guess I would also make the vcs things view on click, like in GitHub
  • jgraham
    (and add git for git cinnabar users ofc)
  • ato
    Regarding the font sizes, I think the main problem is that they’re just disproportionate to eachother.
  • ato
    Now the sans-serif fonts are massive compared to the font size in the diff viewer. Apart from the inline issues which are also tiny.
  • ato
  • Callek
    agreed, I'd like them to be reflective of my Firefox/system defaults, at the same time proportionate to each other. So if I have to increase the font size to read the diff, fine it works -- if I have to decrease it because its too big, fine everything works. but if I have to increase and decrease to use mozreview, I'm likely to stop using mozreview
  • jgraham
    It's really unclear why "Always Show All Commits" is in giant bold text, whereas the commit message is relatively tiny text and the hg commands are giant text, and so on
  • Callek
    jgraham: exactly, the new UI (with regard to font sizes and boldness/borders/etc) draws attention TO the wrong things, and away from others
  • ato
    I’m not sure if we need the line numbers to be that big, for example.
  • ato
    Callek, jgraham: Indeed.
  • Callek
    at the same time making it feel like its the perfect size in the things that matter (diff/commentary) to me
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: basically, to me, this feels like you are heading strongly in the right direction, but this feels like you are building a bigger, newer, better house, but scheduled us to move in before construction is done. -- as such, I think I am advocating for a rollback of the UI change, until there can be a bit more polish in (my percieved) useability ready
  • Callek
    to land
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: make sense (I hope I'm not exuding too much stop energy, or diminishing the value you felt on your work here. I am truely happy that mozreview is getting UX love)
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: I expected this
  • mcote
    we did vet this design with some users fwiw
  • Callek
    mcote: to be clear, I'm still concerned at the fact that a bunch of those reviews on that page, are still having issues loading diffs....
  • Callek
    s/that page/my linked reviewboard example/
  • mcote
    that is concerning (unrelated but concerning nonetheless)
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: I think I'm trying to apply some "polish" that would work on a "marketing" site that don't work with RB users, apparently
  • Callek
    yea --- doubtful its even remotely related, but wanted to point it out
  • jgraham
    Yes, I'm very happy we are trying to make the rb ux better
  • davidwalsh
    re: font size, I've had a bunch of people tell me it's too small, then when I change it, I'm told too big
  • jgraham
    I just think there are some issues with this particular set of changes
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: if you were applying polish you expect to be good on marketing sites, then yes I'd agree it can't be equally applied to RB at mozilla.
  • jgraham
    (fwiw I'm not exactly concerned that the fonts are "too big" but that the wrong things are big/small/grey/black)
  • davidwalsh
    The root issue with font-size probably is that I went from Verdana to Arial, and 11px to 14px
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: the biggest piece about font size, is as ato said, relative font size, and emphasis of size as compared to each other.
  • davidwalsh
    11px Verdana is absolutely unreadable to me and using MozReview like this would give me hedaches
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: I agree -- I'll work to fix that
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: and as I said, "11px" is absolutely a bad model, use em or pt on the web (imo)
  • davidwalsh
    Bearing in mind that RB uses percentages for font updates, so most of this wasn't caused by me changing different stuff
  • jgraham
    (the font in the issue and diff viewers for example is still pretty tiny, and that's the most important stuff on the entire page)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: as px doesn't account for DPI or overall screen resolution, but basing everything on % or em/pt works better
  • ato
    davidwalsh: Verdana to Arial/Helvetica is probably a good move.
  • ato
    Also what Callek says.
  • jgraham
    Callek: CSS px is defined as 1/72 inch
  • Callek
    ++ (Verdana is bad for the web, due to its enlarged sizing compared to other fonts of the same class of fonts -- since Verdana is also not available on all OSs)
  • davidwalsh
    jgraham: ato: Callek: In devtools I changed the font to 0.8em; maybe that's more to your liking overall?
  • davidwalsh
    px is used elsewhere for specific titles but I can change those
  • Callek
    jgraham: well, CSS px is still not perfectly a PX, given difficulty in properly specifying DPI on some OS's/Monitor types
  • davidwalsh
    I'd like to have a good base size people agree on before making overwhelming changes that could just infuriate people again
  • jgraham
    (silly question: why don't we just use Fira for the font?)
  • davidwalsh
    jgraham: I did that, showed it to some people, and they didn't like it
  • Callek
    jgraham: davidwalsh: either way, I'd argue px vs pt/em is not as important as proper relative sizing and consistent font-family designations. Comparatively Verdana is not bad in and of itself, as long as specified font-families along with it are very similar in size (and weight for that matter)
  • Callek
    I'm also a fan of keeping the diff a monospace unweighted font, and the line-numbers "no bigger" than the font used for diff (but also no less than 70% size)
  • davidwalsh
    I'm happy to implement relative sizing, even ecstatic to do so, but it would save us all a lot of time if we could agree on a size now
  • davidwalsh
    I always zoom MozReview like 4x because the original size gives me headaches
  • davidwalsh
    The line numbers look bigger because of the base font
  • davidwalsh
    So we adjust the base font and the line numbers will change
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: well thats the trick, relative sizing doesn't need an agreed upon size, since if its all relative to one another, you can increase/decrease easily as a user -- also if you relative-size everything properly in the CSS you can change the master value(s) easily without needing to change everything
  • jgraham
    (alternate point of view: just use "serif", "sans-serif", "monospace" and the font names so that people can use their system defaults)
  • jgraham
    (anyway I don't care too much about the specific choice of fonts, I care more about the information design and the relative emphasis given to different things in the UI)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: CSS variables could even make the ability to tweak this far easier, if we have a lower-end mozreview base UserAgent that supports in all cases...
  • ato
    jgraham: Does upgrading geckodriver on tooltool require a commit in m-c, or is in out of tree?
  • Callek
    jgraham++
  • ato
    jgraham: I’m wondering how I can land these changes without breaking the Wd tests.
  • jgraham
    ato: Requires a commit in m-c
  • jgraham
    I forgot to do that after the last update
  • jgraham
    :/
  • ato
    jgraham: I’m not sure, but I hope upgrading it does not break Wd.
  • Callek
    ato: you can upload a new binary to tooltool, but if tooltool is used to fetch, you need to land a change to the used tooltool manifest
  • jgraham
    Also callek is the expert :)
  • ato
    Callek: Right, that’s great actually in this case.
  • » Callek isn;t sure what GeckoDriver is used for, or what tests use it, or where the manifest is, but I know the fundamentals quite well
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: ReviewBoard's font-sizing is all over the board -- sometimes they use px, sometimes they use %, other times em's
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: and thats likely a LARGE part of the issue here
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: basically mixing px em and % is probably worse, because its pretty damn hard to decipher what *relative* meaning anything has
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: Right, so what I want to accomplish this moment is a good base size, get that merged now to make people happ*ier*, then in the future I can go into RB's and swap all their font units around
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: I endeavor for internal consistency and relative emphasis, much more than I endeavor for idealistic choices among many options.
  • davidwalsh
    I want to solve the *right* now
  • davidwalsh
    ... .*right now*
  • davidwalsh
    So that people don't want to revert all of the changes
  • davidwalsh
    To me, a base size of 0.8em seems to roughly match the previous font-sizes
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: well "a good base size" is dependant on what you consider base, and what/how things are relative to that base. So if we have a smaller base for <stuff> but other things that are similarly sized don't change, then we're not really much better off, because those things would be bigger. or if we have things at the similar size of the new base, then
  • Callek
    things that should be de-emphasized would conflict with things that should be emphasized, ect
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: its less about the specific font size, and more about relative emphasis and what is grabbing my eye
  • Callek
    to be fair
  • Callek
    if the font sizing on many things is ~ as large as the important things, then thats whats going to drive me in a bad way. Similarly if we decrease the main-page font size, but that also drives the diff font size down, I may end up needing to increase the font size anyway, to undo what you just did and that could cause me to have the same issues I do now
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: note of course, that `0.8em` could be `11px` to your screen, and `8px` to my screen (or `16px` to my screen)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: if we're measuring in em/etc I've found the "proper" sizing is `100%` or `1em` as a base, there are of course many web designers (many of which have great eyesight) who design for a target of 0.8em/80%/10px/11px as a primary font
  • davidwalsh
    I literally have nowhere to go from here except "change the font size"; I realize that fonts should be relative -- what I'm saying is base RB, the project MozReview is built on, has font sizing all over the map, so if we pick a base font-size that I can apply to the <body> that we like, many of the font-size problems can be eased in the short term
  • Callek
    but the idea here, is that the proper sizing is all relative, so that if I find the content on your site at 1em to be too big, I can easily reduce that to suit my needs, or if too small I can increase it, end result is I'm happy :-)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: well, my point is, prior to this landing the relative sizings were pretty sane (give or take some small concerns) post your landing the relative sizings are pretty insane (imo)
  • Callek
    so even if base RB has sizings all over the map, something in how these sizing specifications are used changed in such a way to make it much worse.
  • Callek
    e.g. % sizing cascades changed and thus things that really should have cascaded down to 70% may now be 95%, etc
  • vkats
    could I ask here a webdriver spec related question? As many people involved are here?
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: I guess I'm asking you to humor me: In a perfect world, what size and value would you like the font to be?
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: as one concrete example see jgraham's comment at <now().hour>:11
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: to humor you, lets say, I like the diff view of this (or even ~95% of this) irccloud.mozilla.com/file/jCB8g6Ef/image.png
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: that is the "now" size
  • davidwalsh
    I agree with jgraham's comment and I'm happy to change it
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: line numbers can be shrunk a bit, but current line number sizing doesn't bother me
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: everything (except heading) in <link> is too big, and the smallest (important) content here should be ~2px bigger than the used diff text -- with other pieces sized relatively) irccloud.mozilla.com/file/my4HXczK/image.png
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: I also like some horizontal space on the commit table, and some visible boarders too... if that helps as some additional concrete information...
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: I'll be the first to admit, I'm not a UX designer, and suck at UX designs. But I've learned to try and give use-cases and concerns in as little of a bikesheddy way as possible, since I'm also not the only human using a design and I'm also not the best at weighing the right way to solve a use case (even if I *think* I know what I'd want, the use
  • Callek
    case could be met other ways, and sometimes those other ways make OTHER usecases that I don't care about, better)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: so in this I'm actively trying to stay slightly abstract so I can keep what *I* think would work for me outside of what *may* work for me and many others.
  • » Callek also doesn't even grok as well the difference between serif and sans-serif fonts, though I've read many people argue for/against each one in a variety of cases... Only think I know is you shouldn't mix them both in the same type of content.
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: so, basically -- the end state desire for me, in this redesign work, is "Lets avoid taking any big steps back, even if they are to re-align us on the right path forward.." if fixing the path means we step back a few steps, we probably need to run back forward and see if we can have a bigger path fix first" (to overuse the metaphor)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: that is a desire as long as we're still expecting many of our company to use mozreview and still have strong goals of moving more people over to it. Since if we're taking big steps backward, we'll likely lose a lot of forward momentum and ground with people who are already adverse to change in process (as in, they will switch back to what they
  • Callek
    were comfortable with, and those who haven't used it yet will have further restraints in moving to it)
  • glob
    ekyle: hai
  • mcote
    ekyle: do you know you're on vidyo? :)
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: re: "the end state", I'm trying to get from you the desired "beginning state" so we can get to the end state; I'm asking you what font size youd would like
  • davidwalsh
    Callek: In no way am I refuting or arguing *anything*; I'm asking you specifically what you'd like the font size to be
  • jgraham
    davidwalsh, mcote: FWIW a little more moving stuff around pasteboard.co/k4ORf8U4p.png
  • jgraham
    And some more visual cleanup
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: the beginning state to me, is the state mozreview was in prior to your patch landing :-)
  • jmaher
    whoa party in toronto
  • » ted wonders how bad the weather in TO is currently
  • davidwalsh
    So 11px Verdana, got it
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: and that font size I found overall acceptable. the path between that beginning state and the end state should avoid major steps backward imo -)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: noteworthy, I'm on linux and no Verdana font installed....
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: so I got a fallback
  • Callek
    (Verdana is also larger than most other fonts on the web)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: so `fc-list | grep -i Verda` has no entries
  • davidwalsh
    I will happily implement any <body> font-size and font-family I'm asked to, and adjust from there
  • mcote
    ted: getting warmer actually, going to be 6 celsius on thursday
  • ted
    whee
  • ted
    supposed to warm up here thursday as well
  • jmaher
    yeah, likewise here, had 11F this morning, was really hoping for 1F
  • glob
    ted: i went from ~35C to -11C. it's cold here
  • jmaher
    glob: ack! welcome to Toronto!
  • ted
    glob: oof
  • ted
    glob: unrelated, but i got a steam link for christmas, it's pretty nice
  • jmaher
    steam link?!?
  • ted
    jmaher: it's a little device that does Steam in-home streaming
  • glob
    ted: smacleod has one; i hear a lot of good things
  • ted
    so you run games on another computer and stream them to it
  • jmaher
    oh
  • » jmaher was thinking like a steam iron or something
  • smacleod
    steam link is awesome
  • ted
    humorously it'll just stream your whole desktop so you can alt+tab out of steam on windows and stream whatever :)
  • ted
    smacleod: i'm impressed at how well it works
  • smacleod
    ted: Ya. I'm really happy with the controller support too. I use it to play 4 player games with controllers mostly
  • ted
    cool
  • ted
    i liked that they call out Xbox One controller support in a product bullet point
  • ted
    i wrote that kernel patch :)
  • smacleod
    ha, nice :)
  • ted
    i bought a steam controller last week, but when i tried to use it it asked to install a firmware update and then got stuck in a loop :-(
  • smacleod
    ted: I had that happen once. Force restart it, and plug it in to do the firmware update
  • ted
    ah
  • jmaher
    gbrown: looks like your first change for ubuntu 12.04 worked well
  • gbrown
    jmaher: so far, so good. will push the next patch soon.
  • ato
    For the record, quite a few of us can’t follow up on the newsgroup.
  • wlach|mtg
    ato: yes, and we should fix that
  • ato
    ekyle: Works
  • gps
    vidyo inception
  • armenzg_mtg
    there's still echo
  • jmaher
    if you joined in the last 2 minutes, please mute
  • janx
    MTV 269 please mute
  • ted
    it's either MTV or TOR
  • janx
    A-Wing
  • ahal
    MTV and TOR
  • bc
    tor and mtv should mute
  • armenzg_mtg
    jgriffin: I think you can mute people
  • jmaher
    kick them out?
  • ted
    better
  • jmaher
    emceeaich: thanks! I have been stuck in that position before
  • emceeaich
    that's odd, the conference rooms I thought were set up so that they didn't have to mute
  • jgriffin
    emceeaich: I muted you, if you want to be unmuted let me know
  • jgriffin
    emceeaich: yeah generally they don't need that
  • janx
    true, professional vidioconf equipment should not echo like that, perhaps sound and microphone systems are not properly integrated
  • jgraham
    (Seems like it might be possible to write a more efficient ETL pipeline vs one in Python, if the cost is significant)
  • jgraham
    (that was not me volunteering btw :p)
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: I hope my screenshots/comments around 12:40 actually help -- and of course noting that my system doesn't actually have Verdana so while it may have been ok on my system with whatever the fallback was after Verdana, it may not have been ok on a system with Verdana, I can't be sure
  • Callek
    davidwalsh: also, note those screenshots are my *whole* screen, on a gen3 X1 carbon, so I purposely make my screen bigger (smaller aspect ratio) to suit my eyes, which require bigger fonts than some. But this way (overall aspect ratio changed) I get better readability in my UI fonts and not just website fonts
  • ahal
    ekyle: nice presentation!
  • wlach|mtg
    ekyle: yeah, thanks for presenting!
  • jmaher
    ekyle: very interesting
  • jmaher
    ekyle: possibly we should be questioning each type of data, vs the entire data solution
  • jmaher
    i.e. code coverage - where should this live
  • ahal
    ekyle: fwiw, I think there's a lot of value in active data that we aren't making use of.. I'd be curious to expriment with that redash server wlach was talking about
  • ahal
    I'll echo others in that difficulty in building the query has kept me from using it more often
  • ahal
    but that's also a function of laziness.. we could all become experts in it if we were motivated enough to
  • jmaher
    ahal|lunch: very true
  • janx
    mcote: Hi Mark! Could you please send me a calendar invite for the Commit Pipeline meeting if there is one?
  • janx
    mcote: Also, does it make sense to add a Janitor component to it? (for: writing code, creating/reworking/publishing commits, assisting code reviews?)
  • jmaher
    gbrown: nice, I suspect this will be the patch that is most problematic
  • wlach
    jgraham: could we reuse anything in wpt for a cross-platform performance test harness?
  • wlach
    jgraham: there's some interest in getting some benchmarks set up for quantum, initial thought was talos, but on further thought I'm wondering if something where we could also measure servo might make more sense
  • jmaher
    wlach: ?
  • wlach
    jmaher: just thinking aloud
  • jmaher
    ok, I didn't know if you had heard more from others on the email thread
  • wlach
    jmaher: yeah I was just thinking about it more after we discussed things
  • wlach
    talos only covering m-c is a bit of an annoying limitation
  • jmaher
    s/m-c/Firefox/ ?
  • wlach
    yeah
  • jmaher
    true
  • jmaher
    and we do have wpt on all desktop platforms
  • ekyle
    jmaher: one benefit of big/hot is that the effort supporting ActiveData servers is amortized over multiple data sources. If we look at each type of data, we may loose this benefit. But, when moving to Telemetry we will have to consider one type of data at a time because Telemetry has a stricter typing infrastructure.
  • jmaher
    ekyle: so if we have test data from buildbot/taskcluster for a testfile as well as coverage data, we haven't been using the data to cross reference, instead we use code coverage for code coverage
  • ekyle
    ahal: thanks for your kind words. I certainly beleive there is a lot more that can be done with ActiveData, and I think we know what the barriers are (hard to query, not fast enough on specific queries, etc), now he problem is if they can be solved
  • ekyle
    jmaher: the benefit of activedata is merging all the separate coverage runs into a single coherent whole, and responding to queries fast.
  • jmaher
    ekyle: yes- would telemetry be able to do that?
  • ekyle
    jmaher: (for just showing codecoverage). On the subject of cross referencing, you are right we have not explored what's possible.
  • jmaher
    I am trying to find areas where it might not work out
  • ekyle
    jmaher: telemetry can do anything, the question is how much human effort is required to achieve what query response speed.
  • jmaher
    so we do have a lot of desire to take a set of code coverage files and create a single report
  • jmaher
    ekyle: heh, true- so can microsoft access ;)
  • jmaher
    ekyle: if we take the list of data we have inside of active data, the historical/current uses, and possible some future uses (speculative), we might be able ot outline this better
  • ekyle
    jmaher: don't know MS Access: It is awesome! (well, except for its deficiencies) :)
  • ekyle
    jmaher: I think the list we have now for code coverage use cases is keeping us busy. The outline for codecoverage, from my perspective, is to make all data available quickly; which is independent of what we want to do with it. It is a strategy that can be reused for other data, and I believe our technology is capable of doing this.
  • mcote
    janx: yes, didn't I send it already?
  • mcote
    huh
  • mcote
    it didn't stick I guess
  • jmaher
    ekyle: I don't think we need speed for code coverage, unless we start requiring gecko decision tasks to make intelligent decisions
  • mcote
    janx: there we go :)
  • jmaher
    ekyle: but I suspect we can achieve that with finding patterns or creating tags that can be used as inputs
  • ekyle
    jgraham: I missed the wording of a good point you made, something along the lines of "queries for specific data is too slow". May you repeat that for me? I want to record the concerns at the top of the document.
  • jmaher
    gps: will you have time to look at bug 1291926 today or can you recommend someone else if you don't have time?
  • bugbot
    Bug bugzilla.mozilla.org/1291926 Mercurial: hg.mozilla.org, normal, nobody, NEW , Intermittent Windows builds failing with abort: stream ended unexpectedly (got 131914 bytes, expected 1630418948)
  • gps
    jmaher: if there is a needinfo on me, yes
  • jmaher
    yes, there is a ni for you- even if you can get to it tomorrow that is fine
  • gps
    i didn't triage email last week and today i'm working through the backlog :/
  • » jmaher leaves gps alone to manage his own backlog :)
  • RyanVM
    gbrown: I'm just curious about mozilla-inbound/4bea6ef3d9de
  • RyanVM
    were they as flaky on TC as they were on BB?
  • gbrown
    RyanVM: hard to compare very well, but I was seeing some intermittent timeouts
  • RyanVM
    on BB there are chunks that are permafailing
  • gbrown
    just need a reconfig to end that, I think
  • jmaher
    gbrown: I see more landings, did the 16.04 image land successfully and stay green?
  • gbrown
    yes!
  • gbrown
    I have no idea why the previous attempt failed
  • jmaher
    that is odd, possibly we will be done :)
  • jmaher
    gbrown: what is the bug # for the mach file-info work?
  • gbrown
    jmaher: do you mean bug 1324470 ("mach test-info") ?
  • bugbot
    Bug bugzilla.mozilla.org/1324470 General, normal, gbrown, NEW , Add mach command to access historical test results
  • jmaher
    oh yes, test-info
  • jmaher
    sorry
  • jmaher
    thanks gbrown
  • gbrown
    any time
  • RyanVM
    gbrown: ah well, I can experiment on Try after that merges around
  • jmaher
    gbrown: wlach: I posted info about stockwell for January: wordpress.com/post/elvis314.wordpress.com/1400; I will make a dev platform post referencing this probably tomorrow- but if you see anything I should change in my blog post, please let me know
  • RyanVM
  • gbrown
    excellent - will have a look right away
  • jmaher
    oh thanks RyanVM, I am bad with wordpress
  • gbrown
    jmaher: lgtm - thanks!
  • jmaher
    gbrown: great, thanks for taking a quick look
  • wlach
    jmaher: looks great, thanks for posting!
  • wlach
    jmaher: I'm trying to sketch out a plan for bug 1322433 right now
  • bugbot
    Bug bugzilla.mozilla.org/1322433 General, normal, wlachance, NEW , Make it easier to retrigger a job with failing test with extra logging and debugging options
  • jmaher
    wlach: nice- I don't think that will be an easy bug, but it will open the door to a lot of stuff
  • wlach
    jmaher: yeah there a bunch of details that are still a little sketchy for me ... the more I look at this, the more I think this is more a pure taskcluster level problem
  • jmaher
    oh, that would be interesting
  • jgraham
    ekyle: Although the performance is good when one considers the overall volume of data, the performance for specific queries can be slow compared with aceptable latency for an interactive system
  • ekyle
    jgraham: thanks! good wording!
  • gbrown
    jmaher: got a minute? I need fresh eyes on treeherder.mozilla.org/#/jobs?repo=…c98c541caf070098bf0f01b28ea6525af81 ... why did my skip-if for downscale-moz-icon-1 not work?
  • jmaher
    gbrown: let me look
  • jmaher
    good timing
  • wlach
    jmaher: I'm working on phrasing what I think is needed for this to work well, hopefully the taskcluster people can fill in some of the details for me on implementation once I've done that
  • jmaher
    gbrown: I see: +skip-if(/^Linux\x20i686\x20on\x20x86_64/.test(http.oscpu))
  • gbrown
    right
  • jmaher
    gbrown: does that mean linux i686 on x86_64
  • gbrown
    that is my intention
  • jmaher
    wlach: keep us all in the loop!
  • jmaher
    gbrown: so if we are testing http.oscpu, what does that value equal?
  • gbrown
    jmaher: the sandbox dump says: "oscpu":"Linux i686 on x86_64"
  • jmaher
    ok
  • jmaher
    hmm
  • jmaher
  • gbrown
    but I'm just telling you why it should work, when clearly it does not
  • gbrown
    jmaher: I think so, but maybe I should check to see if that is actually working
  • jmaher
    gbrown: so the link I just sent is running in R4
  • jmaher
    so we are not skiping
  • jmaher
    uh, wait
  • jmaher
    known-skip
  • jmaher
  • jmaher
    gbrown: I would try the simplified version in thatlink I sent along
  • gbrown
    jmaher: I agree - thanks! interesting...
  • jmaher
    :)
  • markh
    I've got the elm twig for some work we are doing and I'd like to have it be "non publishing" so it works with hg evolve (ie, mercurial-scm.org/wiki/Phases#Publishing_Repository). Does anyone know how I should go about that?
  • AutomatedTester
    markh: I suggest asking in #releng or in #vcs
  • AutomatedTester
    best people to help are there :)
  • markh
    AutomatedTester: thanks!
  • AutomatedTester
    np